Dialogue with the Catholics

In the meeting on 21/06/1986

The following was decided:

Regarding the theological dialogue with the Catholics and the letter of Cardinal Wille Brands to His Holiness the Pope, requesting the removal of old deprivations, and the proposed statement from them, regarding clearing the hearts, the Holy Synod considered that the removal of deprivations requires unity of faith first and reaching solutions in the differences of faith between the two Churches. In the forefront of these differences are (Footnote: another point was added to it in the meeting of the Holy Synod on May 28, 1988):

1. The single and two natures of Christ.
2. The procession of the Holy Spirit.
3. Purgatory.
4. Immaculate Conception.
5. Forgings.
6. Mixed marriage with pagans.
7. The entity of the Coptic Catholic Church in Egypt.

Also, there are matters relating to faith and belief that can be understood in a timely manner.

There are other points of disagreement such as:

1. Divorce for a cause.
2. Marriage of priests.
3. Fasting.
4. The first communion.
5. The sacrament of chrismation.
6. Serving women.

On the subject of Peter's primacy of the Apostles and the primacy of the Pope of Rome for the Christian Church in the world, His Holiness Pope Shenouda said: the Apostles have successors, but Christ has no successor on earth, and that the position of St. John the Apostle after the martyrdom of St. Peter the Apostle is inconsistent with the position about the primacy of the Pope of Rome.

Concerning what is being agreed upon between the Coptic Orthodox Church and other churches, such as the Catholic Church, the Holy Synod has decided to stipulate that the agreement becomes official when the Holy Synods of these churches agree.

The Holy Synod decided that the secretary of the Holy Synod is to send a letter to Cardinal Willie Brand carrying the response of the Holy Synod on the issue of lifting deprivations, including the requirement to reach solutions to the differences of faith, the foremost of which are the seven points mentioned above. With regard to the first point, the Holy Synod focuses on the possibility of notable progress on this, especially at the Vienna Pro Oriente Conference in September 1972, and the text that approved the Holy Synod is:

We believe that Our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Logos, is perfect in His Divinity and Perfect in His Humanity. He made His Humanity One with His Divinity without Mixture, nor Mingling, nor Change, nor Confusion. His Divinity was not separated from His Humanity even for a moment nor a twinkling of an eye.

At the same time, we anathematize both Nestorius and Eutyches and their Doctrines.

In the event that the two Churches formally agree on this text as a solution to the first point of disagreement, this will be the first official step in the theological dialogue between the two Churches, and then we can move to the next point in the theological dialogue. It is also possible to issue a joint statement including the aforementioned text instead of the joint statement that the Cardinal Willie Brand sent, including aspects that we cannot agree with, and the proposed text, regarding the nature of Christ, is the basis of this statement that can be issued.

It was confirmed that all the joint statements previously issued by the two Churches are considered to be introductions that only become final and official if they are approved by the Holy Synod.

In the meeting on 28/05/1988

1. Regarding the relationship with the Catholics, His Holiness the Pope said that an agreement has been reached between us and the Catholics regarding the nature of Christ attached to Appendix No. 14-A
2. However, despite this agreement between us and the Catholics, there are many differences between us and them, and next October we will discuss purgatory and the procession of the Holy Spirit.
3. Among the doctrinal differences between us and them are the topics of the Immaculate Conception, the Primacy of Rome, the Primacy of Peter, forgiveness, and other subjects.
4. After examining what was stated in the decisions of the Second Vatican Council in the year 1964, Doctrinal Constitution, Chapter Two, item no. 16, and what was stated in the statement of the session of February 19 1965, and what was stated in the year 1965, Pastoral Constitution, Part I, Chapter I, item no. 22: the Holy Synod decided to add the dispute regarding the teaching of the Second Vatican Council on the salvation of the Gentiles which is an anti-Bible teaching) to the points of official dialogue with the Catholics. Attached to Appendix No. 14-Bis the texts of the decisions of the Second Vatican Council in this regard).

In the meeting on 03/06/1990

1. Regarding the dialogue with the Catholics, it became clear to the Holy Synod that we did not reach any result on the issue of purgatory or the issue of the procession of the Holy Spirit.
2. The Synod noted that the understanding of some of the denominations regarding ecumenism is that its purpose is to attract the members of the Coptic Orthodox Church to these denominations. It also noted that ecumenism means the negligence of the church's association with their beliefs and church.

Q: Do we baptise the Catholic Copts?

A: Yes, because there are doctrinal differences between us and the Catholics such as from whence the Holy Spirit proceeds, immaculate conception, and the salvation of non-believers (this point the Catholics have informed us officially by adding it to the theological points of dialogue between us and them according to the decision of the Holy Council in 28/05/1988 and they officially accepted it).

In the meeting on 25/05/1991

The Synod briefed on the results of the theological dialogue with the Catholics, and how it was not possible to reach a solution, either on the issue of purgatory or the issue of the procession of the Holy Spirit. The Synod also noted that the Catholics in Egypt are walking in a manner inconsistent with the dialogue, practising injustice through the social services and new dioceses that they establish, and the monasteries of the nuns, which contradicts the promise of Pope Paul VI in 1973.

In the meeting on 13/06/1992

We agreed with the Catholics regarding the nature of Christ (Christology), but we did not reach any agreement with them regarding the topics of purgatory, and the procession of the Holy Spirit. They are determined to add "and the Son", or to accept the two texts together (add and not add), but we do not accept this political approach. As for purgatory, they try to get rid of the disadvantages of "purgatory", while they have disadvantages for those who reject this doctrine, and with collective decisions (Vatican)."

In the meeting on 02/06/2001

1. We were informed of the Roman Catholic Church's desire to have an official theological dialogue with the Coptic Orthodox Church.
2. Cardinal Kasper, Head of Ecclesiastical Relations at the Office of Ecclesiastical Unity in the Vatican, visited His Holiness Pope Shenouda on Tuesday 28/03/2000. He also visited some Coptic monasteries accompanied by His Grace Bishop Bishoy, and he expressed admiration for the spirituality of the Coptic Church.
3. There are correspondences and meetings with the Roman Catholic Church (Vatican) to explore the next steps, after the Eastern Orthodox Churches in the Middle East (Coptic, Syriac and Armenian) joined together in any planned dialogue with the Vatican, according to the decisions of the three patriarchs.
4. His Holiness the Pope and His Grace Bishop Bishoy met in Lebanon in May 2001 (during the Armenian Church’s celebration of the 17th century since Christianity was declared an official religion there) with Cardinal Casper, Head of Ecclesiastical Relations in the Vatican. The dialogue was about Nestorius and Nestorians, and Cardinal Casper asked why the Coptic Orthodox Church does not approve of Nestorius, and the matter has been clarified.

In the meeting on 22/06/2002

Pursuant to the contents of the joint statement of the Heads of the Eastern Orthodox Churches in the Middle East, Cardinal Cassidy sent an invitation to the Eastern Orthodox Churches to hold a preparatory committee in the Vatican in December 2002 to set an agenda and plan of action for the Joint Committee for Theological Dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church.

In the meeting on 14/06/2003

HG Bishop Bishoy presented a report on the meeting of the preparatory committee for the official international theological dialogue between the family of the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Roman Catholic Church, which was held in Rome, Italy between 27-29 January 2003.

In this meeting, the agenda of the dialogue was set, which includes the most important theological differences between the two parties, including Catholics' doctrines: the nature of Christ (especially after the agreements between Rome and the Assyrian Church), the procession of the Holy Spirit, purgatory, Immaculate Conception, the resurrection of the Virgin in the flesh, the ascension to heaven, Apostolic Succession, authority and Ecclesiastical Presidency, the number of Ecumenical Councils and their ideological implications, mixed marriages between churches, not allowing divorce for adultery, salvation of non-believers, deprivations, the meaning of “Sister Church”, and the Eastern Churches which are in communion with Rome.

HG Bishop Bishoy was chosen as a co-chair with Cardinal Walter Kaspar, Chair of the Pontifical Committee for the Promotion of Church Unity.

In the meeting on 29/05/2004

HG Bishop Bishoy presented a report on the dialogue that took place between the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church in St. Mark's Centre in Nasr City between 27-30 January 2004, where attendees had the opportunity to attend the Pope's meeting in the cathedral on Wednesday, and His Holiness visited and welcomed them at the Centre.

In the meeting on 18/06/2005

HG Bishop Bishoy presented that the Joint International Committee for Theological Dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church in Rome, Italy, met between 26-29 January 2005. The dialogue was regarding the union of the faith and the union in the sacraments: the complete union and the level of that union. The Faith, Education and Legislation Committee has confirmed the complete communion in the sacraments is based on the complete communion in faith “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism” (Ephesians 4: 5).

In the meeting on 10/06/2006

The fathers of the Holy Synod were informed the following:

1. The letter sent by His Grace Bishop Bishoy authorised the three patriarchs of the Eastern Orthodox Churches in the Middle East to His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI on two issues:

a.     The contents of the document following the Conference of the Catholic Bishops in England, Wales and Scotland in 2005 they say, "we should not expect complete accuracy in the Bible, whether from a historical or scientific point of view" and that the Old Testament has incomplete and progressive matters."

b.     The same bishops called for any sexual orientation to be acceptable and not sinful, as long as this tendency did not turn into actual practices, after which the Archbishop of Dublin declared that homosexuality does not prevent priestly ordination.

2. Cardinal Walter Kaspar responded, authorised by Pope Benedict XVI, asserting that the Catholic Church, according to the Second Vatican Council, believes:

a.     The Bible, as inspired by God, has established teaching, it saves, and it is without error to the truth that God determined to put in the Holy Scriptures.

b.     The official Catholic Church believes that the practice of homosexuality is deviant and wrong, and a distinction must be made between homosexuality and the tendency to homosexuality, but the tendency towards homosexuals must be overcome before ordination in the ranks of priesthood.

The attendees noted that this speech is not in denunciation of the position of the Catholic bishops in England.

In the meeting on 26/05/2007

The Holy Synod was informed of the fact that the fourth meeting of the Joint International Committee for Theological Dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church was held in Rome, Italy, between 28-03 February 2007, where the committee met for the first time with Pope Benedict XVI, and the dialogue on the churches continued with the preparation of a unified paper from the Eastern Orthodox side, then prepare a joint statement that includes understandings about union, the concept of the ecclesiastical family, ecclesiastical authority, the role of bishops, the subject of presidency, and the councils.

The family of our Church expressed its Orthodox concept, and this appeared in the joint statement that the unity of the Church is bound by the unity of faith upon which the unity of the sacraments and the full communion are based. Papers from both sides are presented on the beliefs of each side.

In the meeting on 06/06/2009

Regarding the official theological dialogue with Catholics, the following was presented:

1. Statement on the Fifth Meeting in Syria, 27 January – 2 February 2008 (English and Arabic).
2. Statement on the Sixth Meeting in Rome 26-30 January 2009 (English and Arabic).

In the dialogue with the Catholics, a document on the nature, composition and authority of the Church was drafted, indicating points of agreement and difference, and some notes will be conveyed from the committee at the next meeting in January 2010, God willing.

In the meeting on 22/05/2010

The following was shown:

The Joint International Committee for the Official Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches met in its seventh meeting in Antelias, Lebanon between 27-31 January 2010. Our Church is represented in this dialogue by His Grace Bishop Bishoy and Dr Father Shenouda Maher.

The topic of the research was: "How did the churches understand the acceptance of the ecumenical councils? How did the churches express their communion in the first five centuries? Was Rome given a special role?"

His Grace Bishop Bishoy presented the Coptic Church paper in English in a 23-page document with a four-page appendix in the Greek language and Latin language with the message of St. Clement, Pope of Rome, to Pope St. Cyril I, Pope of Alexandria. (The paper was attached to the papers of the Synod session file).

Within this paper, he explained how the saint James the Apostle, the brother of the Lord, Bishop of Jerusalem, was the one who presided over the Council of the Apostles in Jerusalem and said in his word, "I judge that those who return to God from the nations will not be burdened " (Acts 15:19). His word was the final word and decisive in the council of the leaders of the Holy Spirit and everyone agreed."

He also set out in the same paper some of the writings of St. Basil the Great to St. Athanasius the Apostle, indicating that the Pope of Rome was not the head of the (universal) Church, but rather this was said to Saint Athanasius who did not demand this nor did he act on it.

Saint Basil the Great says of St. Athanasius, “The more churches become sick, the more we all resort to your majesty, in the belief that your leadership is the comforting leadership remaining to us in our troubles”, “that is, they do not start a more appropriate beginning other than by appealing to your majesty, as with the head and head of all”, “if I look at the direction of your honour, remember that our Lord appointed you as a physician for Church diseases, so my soul recovers.”

It was requested at the meeting that the research be completed on these topics around which the discussions took place, and His Grace Bishop Bishoy will complete a research a paper to be presented. It will refer to the book of His Holiness Pope Shenouda III on St. Mark, which explains how the one who founded the Church of Rome is Saint Paul the Apostle and not Saint Peter the Apostle. This will be set out alongside other points to complete the dialogue.